Narcissistic Households, Explained: Roles, Gaslighting & Healing | Dr. Nzinga Cates

Fernanda: Hello everyone. Welcome back to Connectedness, the place where we talk about relationships, personal growth, and how we can connect better with ourselves and with each other. Today's conversation is one that's close to my heart and I want to be honest with you about that before we even get into it.

My guest today is Dr. Nzinga Cates. She's a victimologist, licensed clinical mental health counselor, and one of the first researchers to center the lived experiences of black daughters raised by narcissistic mothers. She's also a survivor of narcissistic abuse herself and she brings both her clinical expertise and her own healing journey into her work. She's the author of two books, What Happens in This House: A Memoir of Strength and Black Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers: Healing the Wounds That No One Could See along with a companion workbook that helps readers apply what they're learning.

I wanted to have Dr. Cates on because this topic isn't abstract to me. My mother is a narcissist and over the years I've had to set boundaries that eventually led to estrangement. It wasn't a decision I made lightly and it took me a long time to even understand what I was reacting to. I didn't have the language for it most of my life. I just knew something felt off and I carried a lot of confusion, self-doubt, people pleasing that I couldn't quite trace back to its source.

My hope for today isn't to make it about my story specifically, but it's to use what I've lived through as a doorway into a bigger conversation. Because I know so many of you listening are either in the middle of this or coming out on the other side of it or maybe you're just starting to recognize the patterns for the first time. So, Dr. Cates is going to help us understand what actually happens inside a household with a narcissistic parent, why it shapes our sense of self so deeply, and what it looks like to unlearn all of this as adults.

Dr. Cates, thank you so much for being here. I'm really looking forward to this. Can you help us decide what we mean when we say narcissistic mother or narcissistic household? I think a lot of people hear the word narcissist and picture something very extreme, but the reality can be a lot more subtle, right?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: So, in terms of a narcissistic household, think of it as a toxic household because that's something that more people are familiar with is something that's toxic, but it's a household where there are usually roles that everyone plays that are toxic. Meaning, you have your golden child, you have your invisible child, you have your scapegoat child, right? And there are other roles, but those are the three most common talked about. And basically in this household, when we're talking about a mother, we're talking about someone who triangulates her children. So she's not interested in making sure that all of her children get along, right? She's more interested in the control that she has over her children. And so she's willing to use spouse, children, friends outside of the home, anyone possible as her pawns in order to keep the control in her home. And it can go anywhere from, you know, just like verbal control all the way up to physical. And so it it varies depending on the household, but it's really about the control that the mother has and the ability to go to any extent to have it.

Fernanda: Why does that sound familiar?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: It's familiar in a lot of homes, but like you were saying earlier, it's about the the verbiage or the wording that people use. I didn't find out until I was in my late 30s. And statistically, most people don't understand the dynamic or even identify it and so they're in their late 30s, early 40s, right? So part of my work is to get the message out way sooner than that. As with most people, you've now had children. You've now incorporated some of those things in your household that you're not aware of. So, it's early learning that's important.

Fernanda: Yes. I also I think I only became aware of this and started learning the terminology for this in my late 30s as well, like 38, 39, 40. So yeah, you talked about the difference between what a healthy parent offers a child and what a narcissistic parent offers instead. Can you walk us through that? What does a child need to develop a stable sense of self and where does that break down?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: A parent needs to be able to provide a sense of security and safety. A child needs to be able to make mistakes. They need to be able to venture out and try different things and be encouraged to do so. In a narcissistic home, you are made to rely on that parent, right? So, if you make a mistake, it's the worst thing you could have ever done. It's the end of the world. You would think that you tried to kill your parent, right? Asking for help or being vulnerable is something that is frowned upon. It's actually used against you. But in a healthy household, vulnerability is something that is promoted. Being promoted to share your feelings, what you think about certain things. Something as simple as being able to lock your door for safety, your bedroom door, are things that are frowned upon in a narcissistic home because your mom or your dad doesn't have the ability to just walk in whenever they want. Like that is a clear violation that in a narcissistic home is seen as something positive. But in a healthy home, having safety is something that you should always grow up with. It helps you blossom into who you want to be in life.

Fernanda: Yeah, safety, privacy, right?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Vulnerability is huge. Being vulnerable with your parent is something that you should be able to do. You should be able to ask them or talk to them about anything. But in a narcissistic home or a toxic home, that's frowned upon. It's used against you. You share something secretive with your mom and she shares it with the world. That type of thing.

Fernanda: Yeah. No boundaries. Definitely. Like no boundaries.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: No. And no right to privacy. I think that's a big one because when we talk about privacy, it's not just about your physical being, right? It's privacy of thoughts. It's something as simple as having a journal that's yours and your mom chooses to go and read your journal and share what was in your journal with others or read your journal in secret and use the things that she read in arguments with you or in conversations with you. And then you're kind of gas lit because you're like, I I know I wrote that somewhere, but there's no way my mom would have ever read that and used that against me. Or if you asked, I didn't read your journal. I don't know what you're talking, right? So, there's a lot of gaslighting that happens in these relationships. And when we think about gaslighting, we often think of romantic relationships, which it happens there in narcissistic romantic relationships. A narcissistic mom and dad uses that every day of your life. You're being gaslighted every day.

Fernanda: Yeah. And I'm glad you brought up gaslighting because something that I can share from my growing up was something my family used to say, not just my mother, but I think my sisters learned that behavior from her also to like you're making too much of a big deal out of this.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Yes, that's a big one. That's a really big one, Fernanda, because one of the things that doesn't get discussed enough is that especially as the scapegoat in the family, whether there's terminology there for that or not, everyone understands that they don't want to be you, right? So, the family actively works to keep the scapegoat the scapegoat. Whether it's intentional or not, they know they don't want to be in that seat. And so whatever they have to do to create the environment for the scapegoat to be the scapegoat, they'll do it. Running back and telling mom secrets, you know, mom talking to them about certain things or using them as pawns to come and ask you questions, that's all a part of it. And it is intentional. That's the the biggest part about narcissism with a parent is it is intentional. It's not something that, you know, it's just a mistake. Parents make mistakes, right? We know that. But when you're talking about a toxic household, very few things are mistakes, right?

Fernanda: That's so it's nice somebody who gets it.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Yeah. Because if you don't or try to explain this to somebody it's like crazy.

Fernanda: No. Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Something that I faced over time is when talking to friends who had good mothers, who had nurturing non-narcissistic mothers that I don't think they get it. And so like I have to remind people, hey, like there's a lot of you know, I use the word shitty mothers, pardon my French, mothers out there, you know, and it's on a continuum, right? So you have the mom who's nurturing and kind, makes mistakes, honors their mistakes, ask for forgiveness, and you go all the way up to mothers that kill their children. Like it's all on the same continuum, you know, and it's out there. It's really a real concept.

Fernanda: Yeah. So, you often describe it as a message beneath the message. Things like your needs come second. Love must be earned. Mistakes are unacceptable. Can you talk about how those beliefs actually get transmitted? Because it's rarely someone sitting a child down and saying those things directly to the child, right?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: So most of the time it's, let's say, mom's having a bad day, right? Everyone's having a bad day, right? There's no boundary in terms of I'm going to go and have my own space in my bedroom and keep this to myself. It becomes everyone's issue. Oftentimes you're responsible for the growth of your parent, meaning you're the parent. So, you're responsible for taking care of your mom's emotional needs, sometimes physical needs. And so you learn, right? What is the mood of my mother? What is the mood of my father? And I don't like to leave fathers out because fathers are narcissistic as well. But what is their mood? Right? If they're happy, leave them happy. Allow them to be happy. The problem is on any given day, you don't know what's going to make them unhappy. Right? So, it's like walking in a minefield every day. Don't step on the wrong thing. Right? So, it's hard to explain in words, but it could be as simple as them commenting on an outfit that you have on. You feel amazing about that outfit and they know that you feel amazing about it, so they make a condescending remark or they shame about something about that outfit, you know. Yeah, I can remember I bought with my own money. I was in a dance group at my school and I bought this outfit. I don't know if you remember cross colors, but it was a cross outfit with some combat boots.

Fernanda: Yes.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: And my dad was like, "Absolutely not." He took it back. So, with my money, he took it back and I had to come up with some sort of outfit to kind of blend in. But when I got back, my money that I spent on my outfit was on the table waiting because he said I couldn't be out there looking like a clown representing him.

It's those things, right, that teach you don't know your own judgment. You can't you don't even know how to pick clothes for yourself. Those are the subtle that was a bigger than subtle message but those are the messages that you receive. Your hair is your glory. I wasn't all about cut my hair like so many things.

Fernanda: I'm so sorry you went through this

Dr. Nzinga Cates: It's okay. I learned that and I I teach my clients often that part of the journey is understanding and accepting what you went through. It's painful. But that's part of the journey. If you can't accept, you don't heal, you know.

Fernanda: Yeah. It's accepting and something because I've been doing this work for myself for about 10 years now. And sometimes it rears its ugly head again like the healing like, I have another episode where I was talking to somebody about healing and healing is not linear linear right like it can there's two steps forward three steps back and sometimes you make progress and you're good and then sometimes it it kind of flares up whatever was, a wound from the past and one of the things I had to do was grieve.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Absolutely.

Fernanda: Grieve the mother that I wish I would have had but I didn't. And that gave me, you know, it was painful but it also gave me a lot of mental freedom to say, you know, what it is. Like, I had a narcissistic mother and it caused xyz damage and now it's you know my turn to heal myself and maybe even mother myself you know be the mother I wish I would

Dr. Nzinga Cates: One of the things that I had to learn how to do is reparent myself. And that's one of the things that I do with my clients. We go all the way back to childhood. What are the things that you didn't get to do that you really wanted to do? Mine is coloring.

Fernanda: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: I love to color. I like to be outside. Even though I don't like bugs, I do like to be outside. Just little things that we weren't able to do because it was about cleaning. It was about image. Was about making sure that you always the best that you know all of that was part of my life growing up and so if I don't feel like getting out of the bed one day I just don't that was so hard for me Fernanda.

Fernanda: Yeah. My god learning how to rest.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: We didn't rest. And I didn't realize it until I started this journey that literally making yourself look like you're busy.

Fernanda: Regular part of my day growing up.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: I have anything to do. I found something to do because I didn't want to be in trouble. I didn't, you know, it there's just no rest.

Fernanda: So that's so interesting because I for me I do struggle with not being able to rest but I don't remember it being from childhood. I think it was more like a habit that I had to build over time to prove myself that I was being productive. And that's something it's really hard to unbreak. It's really hard to unlearn that habit like unconscious of them.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Yeah, you learn that somewhere in childhood. So, usually when you have a narcissistic parent, the issue is that especially of the scapegoat, once you reach a goal, changes, right?

Fernanda: Goalpost is always changing, right?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: So, that's where you learn this this idea that you have to constantly keep growing, keep growing. You can never be satisfied, right? So that's one of the things that I still struggle with today is like not being satisfied with certain things. So for instance, I went, this is kind of funny, but not. So I went to do a docu series the other day and it was the first one I had ever done. So I didn't know what the heck I was walking into. And I got there and I had rehearsed the questions and as soon as the camera started rolling, I forgot all that, I forgot everything. I beat myself up so bad and I had to pull myself in like, "Girl, this was the first time you did this. You didn't know what to expect." But that comes from childhood. I didn't meet the mark in my mind. Even though the people around me were probably like, "Girl, you did great."

Fernanda: Yeah. So, you had that inner critic flaring up.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Oh, yeah. The inner critic, I hate to say it, but it never goes away. It's about learning how to challenge that inner thought, right? You have a negative thought. Okay, whatever. But what did you do? What have you accomplished? You know, it's still foreign when I go on podcast and people read off my accomplishments. I still sometimes like I did that? Or you're talking about me? Like it's hard. So, and that comes from the gift of having a a narcissistic parent, right? Nothing is ever good enough. Nothing's good enough. Don't be too proud. Don't stay humble, right? Humble is a concept, but when a narcissistic parent says that, it just means don't become better than me. Don't think you know more than me. Right? So those things are still things that I work through and that I help my clients work through every day.

Fernanda: Yeah. So needed. You're honestly like the work you're doing is so needed.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Thank you so much.

Fernanda: I know.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: I love to hear that because sometimes I don't feel like it's almost thankless sometimes. You don't you help people get where they're going. Like I help people start businesses because as a child in that household there are things that maybe you feel like you can do.

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: But you're made to feel like it's impossible.

Fernanda: Can't do it.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: And a lot of times that comes from the fact that it's something that your mom or your dad wanted to do but they didn't get to accomplish it. So you can't do it right. So it's just, there's so many dynamics.

Fernanda: Oh my god. Yeah. We could. So let's, if you don't mind if I ask you about people pleasing because that's something I've been trying to unlearn. It's really hard, but like it's a skill that like the way that you you speak about it. It struck me in your work is the idea that people pleasing becomes a survival skill. Can you explain why that happens and how something that helped us survive childhood can become the very thing that gets in our way as adults?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Absolutely. So I mentioned earlier reading the room, right? So, as a narcissist, a child of a narcissist or a narcissistic child, you learn immediately in any room that you walk in, especially if your parent is there, you read everybody's emotions. You read the room everywhere you go because not just at home do you have to make sure that you're not walking in the minefield, right? Because do the same thing outside of your home. So, if that person is your mom's friend, you have to be very careful what you say. You have to make sure you're always performing, right? Because if you make that parent embarrassed or you do something that isn't in alignment with what they want, there is punishment waiting for you at home. And that punishment can look a lot of different ways, right? So, you learn to people please everywhere you go. Everywhere's a mask, everywhere's a performance. And depending on where you are, it's a different mask.

Fernanda: Yep.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: As you become an adult, right, you learn to put your needs on the back. It's back burner. I'm always last, right? And then end up people pleasing on your job. You people please within your home, in your marriage, in your relationships. And people take advantage of that. They absolutely do. One of my favorite sayings, you know, you don't have to keep yourself set on fire in order to keep other people warm because there's people around you. You know, they're just warming their hands while you're on fire the whole time, you know. So, and and you learn that as a child. The mask is very real. You don't even know who you are a lot of times when you grow up. I didn't I had no clue who I was. And the people that took advantage of that is crazy.

Fernanda: Yeah. I love I hadn't heard the the saying you just said about like you keep your yourself on fire to keep other people warm. But I think it resonates and it's a good way of looking at people pleasing. And how we had to learn that we had to read the room. We had to make sure everybody else was okay. And it carries into our lives like a lot of actually I was just in a podcast episode. I was a podcast guest yesterday at another podcast called Lonely at the Top and that podcast is about career. That hit me in my soul.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: It's a good one.

Fernanda: When it publishes I'll send it to you. It's this lady I know from networking that she's like a career executive coach former psychotherapist and her target clients that or her clients are usually high-powered people who are lonely who, because they've you know leadership can be isolating and we were talking about why, what it takes sometimes for somebody to be successful in corporate America and a lot of it is having weak boundaries and people pleasing.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Oh, corporate America is a beast. I work with a lot of people in corporate America and what I realize is these are the power driven women who always volunteer. I'll take I'll do it. Right. And people stand back and watch you because they don't want to do it.

Fernanda: Right.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Yeah. So, you're taking on all these projects. You're doing all these things. And really at the core, it's a little girl that just

Fernanda: Wants to be just wants to prove that she's good enough.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: I'm good enough. Because you grew up in a home that you were never seen unless you were in trouble. Especially the scapegoat. Like having the scapegoat role. All children suffer. I don't want to in any way make it seem like any role is better than the other because.

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Everyone suffers. But being the scapegoat, you carry the weight of everything in the house.

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: And so it becomes something that you don't like, but you imitate it. When you get older, you carry the weight of everything, everybody. And people will stand back and allow you to do that.

Fernanda: Oh, yeah. And I definitely used to be that person when I was in corporate America. I used to be the one with no boundaries trying to prove myself getting my worth or trying to get my worth from external validation.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Absolutely.

Fernanda: You know, but never really got my worth from.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: And the same thing for the golden child, right? The golden same thing because they're used to always being in the spotlight because they hold the image of the family. They're the perfect ones, right? They carry that into corporate America. They carry that into church. They everywhere you go, you carry it with you until you realize it's really a problem and where it comes from.

Fernanda: Yes. So, I know we talked earlier about the inner critic, but I do have a question that was prepared for that concept like you know it's about the internal voice that a lot of us carry. The constant questioning of am I doing enough? Do people approve of me? What if I disappoint someone? Where does that voice come from? And how do we start to recognize that it's not actually our own?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Well, it comes from your parent, right? But that's that's that vulnerability piece. That's the the piece of you that wants to venture out and try new things. And if you make a mistake, it's okay to go home and and be comforted in that mistake and taught something different, right? When you become older, it's an issue because it wasn't safe when you were younger, right? So, you never get the opportunity to really develop who you are as a person. So, what you're talking about is not necessarily those individual questions that you're asking. It's simple question. Am I good enough? Right? And then if I don't feel good enough, then we see it in all the aspects that you're talking about. It shows up everywhere. So that's where it comes from. So challenging that thought, it comes from seeing other people like I can remember being around other families with more healthy moms um and being like, "Wow, did she just say that to her mom and she still has all her teeth?"

Fernanda: Haha

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Like, what's going on? That's when I started to question. I still didn't necessarily know what it was, but I started to question when I started to go out and venture around other people that something was wrong with what I was dealing with. I just didn't have the words. And I think the same thing happens when you start to go into different communities, you start to do the work, you start to see everybody doesn't act like this, right? Some people don't volunteer for everything.

Fernanda: Right.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Some people because they don't need to be seen. They don't need that validation and it's a concept. Sometimes we label them as lazy, right? They just have boundaries. And some people are lazy. Let's be clear. But sometimes, you know, sometimes it's just boundaries that we've.

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: They're not going to take on too much work. Meanwhile, we're dying at home trying to get everything done.

Fernanda: Right. Right. Yeah. I've been learning a lot of those lessons the the past few years and it's amazing how much you can unlearn and what a different person you can become once you become aware of the impact that being in a narcissistic household had on you and how it manifests in adulthood.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: And one of the things that I say is that it's not necessarily about becoming a different person.

Fernanda: Mhm.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: It's becoming who you were intended to be.

Fernanda: Yes.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Everything that you need is within you, right? A narcissistic mom or dad sees those qualities in you and they don't like them. They don't like strong. They don't like that you're opinionated. And so those are the things that they shame. But you're not becoming a new person. You're becoming who you already were and are. You're just getting comfortable with it.

Fernanda: I love that. So, let's talk about self-doubt and questioning your own reality.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Okay.

Fernanda: Like, so many daughters of narcissistic mothers hear things like, "You're too sensitive. That never happened. You're overreacting." What does that do to a person's ability to trust their own perception over time?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Absolutely no trust in yourself. You feel like you get everything wrong. Everything that you do is wrong. Everything that you say is wrong, right? Like, yeah, that's really what it culminates to. And so children of narcissists especially a scapegoat. I keep going back to the scapegoat because that's who I see most in therapy. You're taught against your intuition, right? So you meet someone that doesn't make you feel good, you don't believe it. You want to see the best in everybody. And that's generally how you end up back in those same relationships that you grew up in your household is your intuition. You feel like it's wrong all the time when it's absolutely correct, spot on in every situation, but you negate that process in your mind because you were taught not to trust it. When you were younger, your mind was telling you, your gut was telling you something's wrong with your mom.

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Something's wrong with your dad. This is not okay. But that's where the gaslighting comes in. So you're taught to second guess that feeling, that innate core feeling. So you take that into the world and then you get taken advantage of. People use you. You have to realize what boundaries are. Start boundaries again. Work through the guilt of being used. Like it's just layers and layers.

Fernanda: Layers.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Yeah. But it comes from being shamed about your own intuition as a child. Lovely, right? Because who would believe that your mom would do that? You know, you try to tell people, it's not just your parent that does that. When you go out in society and tell people, I remember telling people, asking people, can I live with them, like four sets of god parents. I just wanted somebody to parent me. I just something, you know.

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: But those people will also tell you, well, that doesn't sound like your mom.

Fernanda: Yeah, because your mom's perfect in society. Everybody loves her.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: So surely you're not talking about your mom. You did something wrong. Plays into how you feel about your intuition, how you feel about yourself.

Fernanda: Yeah. It's like it's a whole theater, right? Like the person who is the narcissist is usually putting on a really charismatic face to the world. And they are not the same person in the home.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: And when you're talking about mom specifically, moms are usually the one in public who is the most loved is vicious at home. Like that's the part of narcissism that I feel like doesn't get enough light on it. We don't shine enough light on the viciousness of that mother at home. I mean, I can't even describe it to you in words. Vicious is an understatement. They're mean, they're brutal, they're often physically abusive. And then they call it love, right? And then most of the people I work with and and my dynamic growing up was there's this religious aspect where you're guilted through religion, right? You're abused under the umbrella of religion and honoring your mother and your father. All of those things all play together to environment that she needs at home.

Fernanda: Yeah, it's not great. You know, the religious piece you and you're as you are bringing this up this is a sidebar that a friend of mine told me about a documentary on Netflix about this woman called Jodie Hildebrand I don't know

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Oh god yeah you haven't watched that

Fernanda: I watched it, it's very fresh in my mind from a couple of days ago so that's it came up as I was listening to you where I was like cuz this other woman that she kind of paired up with was definitely a narcissistic mother and was a YouTuber Brooke or what's her name?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: I don't remember her name, but she had a very popular YouTube channel talking about parenting and what it was like raising her kids.

Fernanda: And Ruby Frank with her and they were from the Mormon community. So there was a religious aspect in there too that made me think of that documentary. I'm like, "Oh my gosh."

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Yeah. I grew up full gospel Baptist, which was almost like Pentecostal.

Fernanda: Okay.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: So very strict modest nuts.

Fernanda: Yeah. It gives like people people who at least what I've seen and what I see in culture and talking to other people it seems like when there is dysfunction in a family if there is religion also a lot of times the dysfunction can get like veiled in the religion in a way or use the religion as excuse for the dysfunction.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: I don't know how many times I remember sitting in church and, you know, hearing about beating your children. Oh, and it was just like we were talking about dinner, you know, beating your children. I got pregnant out of wedlock. I had to apologize to the church before I could participate in anything in the church again. What a humiliating experience it was, you know. And my mom was standing right next to me holding my hand while I did this. And I'm talking to people that I had been in the club with. Like we kicked it together and I'm apologizing to you.

Fernanda: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: That definitely is a lesson of you are worthless, you horrible, you're a terrible person, and you have to ask forgiveness of sinners. Just be an usher in a church. Like.

Fernanda: Yeah. And yeah, that's terrible. I'm sorry that extra layer of issues there.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: It's so common though. It is so like the majority of the people that I work with, male and female, there is a a whole religious component. And I'm not a religious therapist. I don't want to put that out. There's a whole element of that you have to work through. Even some of the songs that people sing, you know, I'm worthless, I'm hopeless without God. I'm just, you know, as filthy rags. Like, wow. When you take that and combine that with what you're being taught at home, I mean, it's almost hopeless from the beginning. Like, you go out in the world with that concept, you get eaten a lot.

Fernanda: Yeah. Okay. Well, thanks for sharing that part. I think we would need a whole other episode on.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: That's a whole another thing. And I don't want to say religion is bad. That's not thing. But there are certain aspects of religion that absolutely feed into narcissistic nature and can be problematic. When you think about narcissism in the church, that's a big thing.

Fernanda: Yeah. It can be. I mean, I'm not an expert on that area at all, but I can see how it can be problematic. For sure.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Yeah, I'm sure you've heard of Jim Jones.

Fernanda: Oh, is he the one who did the drink the Kool-Aid thing? Yes. Yes, I do know that.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: So many cult leaders like that. And it stems from church and it grows and grows and grows. Narcissism goes on.

Fernanda: Yeah. That's terrible. I did watch that documentary. It was horrific what happened in that situation.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Oh yeah.

Fernanda: So for me setting boundaries eventually led to estrangement and the word estrangement it carries a lot of weight and I know it's not the outcome for everyone in this situation. But can you talk about the spectrum of what healing could look like? For some people it's boundaries within the relationship. For other people it's distance or for some people it could be estrangement. How do you help someone figure out what's right for them?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Well, it's based on the boundary that you set, right? How that person responds to the boundary. So there's mild contact, there's minimal, and then there's no contact, right? So there always has to be some type of when you're dealing with a truly narcissistic parent, there has to be at least minimal contact. It's impossible to have anything more than that. Because especially in the beginning stages because you're still eager to have a relationship with that parent. You still want that parent to love you the way you need to be loved. So, if there's anything more than minimal contact, you're almost always sucked right back into that relationship with the guilt that they place on you. But basically what we do is we start setting boundaries and based on how they respond to that boundary, set another one, right?

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: And eventually the determination is made for you. Right. In a lot of cases, there are times that you have to say, "Okay, I'm not going I'm not doing the same." But it generally starts with minimal contact and as you set boundaries, you just see what happens. That's painful though. It's a very painful process

Fernanda: Because it's painful and hard to do for someone who grew up without a sense of self and having people pleasing tendencies like learning how to set boundaries I think it sounds really great on paper but on in practice it's really hard for some

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Right it is very hard and when you're talking about people of color it can be even harder Right? Because I know in the black community, mom is God. She's God. There is no talking back. There is no having an opinion. There is no what? Right. So when you start saying no.

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: That's a boundary within itself that everyone should have the ability to do, right? But you meet people who are well in their 40s and they still can't tell their mom no.

Fernanda: Yeah. I believe

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Something that simple, you know? And so boundaries are key to determining how much relationship you want with that parent. Because they don't respect them, right? And so if you set a boundary, you start to really see the ugly side of that person.

Fernanda: Mhm.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: And so it becomes a little easier to set the boundaries once you start to see that side of them consistently because the problem is the good with the bad.

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Right. They're so amazing at being great to hoover and pull you back into that relationship that when something is really ugly, it's like, did that really happen? They didn't mean that. Right? So consistently seeing that side of them makes it a little bit easier to set the boundaries that are needed. And sometimes no contact is... I want to say there was a period of time I went three to four years I think with no contact with my mom. And now it's just kind of as I need to because at some point somebody's got to get off the ride. They're not going to because they enjoy the manipulation. and they enjoy the control. So yeah, you have to be willing to say at some point enough is enough. I need more, right? But as we do the work, you start to fall in love with yourself.

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: And the more you love yourself, it becomes impossible to allow that behavior. It's too painful. It hurts too bad.

Fernanda: True. And and I was going to say like at least for my as I'm discovering this more and more about myself is sometimes when I discover that something in my life has to do with my narcissistic mother that maybe I hadn't associated with her yet or with that dynamic growing up yet. I end up having some anger and the anger actually helps, you know, it helps me let go and it helps me detach and it helps me re rationalize and be like yep that's what happened and I don't know I find it actually like in this context the anger is very healthy for me

Dr. Nzinga Cates: It is but again it's about learning your emotions versus the emotions of your mother or the emotions of someone else because you carry that stuff, right? So, you have to begin to discern whose feelings do this. These are not my feelings. These don't belong to me.

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: I am angry right now and this is my anger and I can feel it and I can be okay with it and based on that, this is what I'm going to do with it. Right? But that takes work because being angry, what you know, what are you angry for? Why are you mad, right? So you have to learn to be comfortable with being angry and not beat yourself up for being angry, right? Cuz back when you were a kid, you couldn't be angry.

Fernanda: This is really a great conversation so far. The next one is about the guilt. I used to wrestle with guilt that comes from choosing yourself even when I knew intellectually that the estrangement was necessary. There was still a part of me that questioned it like is this normal? Or I think I would feel like oh my god am I being a bad daughter? Am I being a bad person? And so I wonder from your perspective treating people and your own situation like does that feeling go away fully or do we just learn to hold it differently?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: I think that's something one of those things that you talked about earlier like different stages. I don't know that it goes away. I still periodically feel it but I think it depends on the situation. So, it's it's more guilt associated with how I'm making her feel, how I think I'm making her feel. And I see that a lot. It's like, you know, am I making her sad? Is it, you know, how does she look? Especially when I wrote my first book. It was like, oh my gosh, you know, how are people going to view her? What? And I had to really learn that I'm not doing anything wrong by acknowledging how I feel. Or by allowing myself the space that I need to heal. Because the reality is if someone other than my mother treated me like this, I wouldn't want to be friends with them.

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: I wouldn't even talk to them.

Fernanda: Right. Right.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: And so the behavior doesn't get u excused based on who it is, including your mom. Right. So when I start to feel the guilt, that's the first question that I ask myself. Would I allow anybody else to do this to me? And if the answer is no, it's a no for her, too.

Fernanda: Yeah. Yep.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: And so it it really helps. It really helps. And again, I think also the more comfortable you become with yourself and the more you start to respect yourself and your peace, it becomes a little easier to set that boundary and say no. It doesn't always go away. We're human first, right? So, it's not always go away. But, that's my go-to question. Would I go to this event if someone there was going to treat me this way? No, I wouldn't go. And so, there are certain family events that I have not gone to because I don't feel like being uncomfortable. I don't feel like having to explain why I haven't been around. Like I don't want to do it and I'm not going to entertain foolishness, but I don't want to.

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Not always easy, but...

Fernanda: Yeah. Because there's a lot of society expectations of what? You're not going to show up to such and such wedding or right, you're not going to go to this Christmas gathering or whatever. Like it's your family. It's blood, you know, blah blah. but I think those messages come to us but they miss there are some blind spots right? The people who are saying that they don't know that they see the whole truth of they're like gaslighting from society almost like why are you being so sensitive why don't you just show up to the family function you know what I mean.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: You know something that I've found in in the work that I do is that most of the time. The people that are the most upset that you didn't show up are people that are not willing to acknowledge they played a part in it. Right? And so you have to keep playing the role so that I don't have to acknowledge that your mom used me, that your mom has taken advantage of me, that I played a part in your being hurt, right? It keeps them from that accountability. And so that's often what you see. I've worked with people who have left their spouse and once they left the family members were like, "Girl, what took you so long? We were wondering the whole freaking time." But they didn't want to say it because that would cause them to be in the hot seat, right? So they either don't want to take accountability or they don't want to be in your shoes. You marry into that family. You take the hot spots off of them. You now carry all that crap. We can just live our life, right? Because they grew up with that person, they know who you married, right? People know who your mom is. They felt the heat from your mom, right? But as long as you carry that burden, they don't have to feel it anymore.

Fernanda: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: It's the selfishness that they don't want to acknowledge in a lot of cases. And so they guilt you. Where you at? Where? Why you not taking this pain, girl? I don't want it.

Fernanda: Yeah. Interesting. I love that perspective.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Yeah. As you learn those things, it becomes easier to set the boundary and say, "No", because you realize that people know what's going on and they're comfortable with you sitting in the hot seat being on fire.

Fernanda: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: For next time. Experience is the best teacher. You know, the more spare, the more you go and settle and go to those events and walk away sad, crying. I can't tell you how many times I left events balling my eyes out like, "Why did you go? You knew it was going to be like that." Those lessons teach you not this that I'm going to go. I always teach have an escape plan. If you're going to go, have an escape plan. Always drive yourself. Don't rely on and don't stay in a hotel room with them. If you don't have to stay in a hotel, don't make have your own space. So when you're ready to go, you can get out of there, show your face, be gone, go home to your to peace.

Fernanda: Yes. Yes. I love that. So if somebody, let's say somebody is kind of new to this journey and they are recognizing themselves in a lot of the things that you described earlier, where would they even begin with the process of trying to unlearn all of this negative messaging that they got in life?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: I would say if you're just finding out, be comfortable with the hurt because it's going to come in most cases with a profound hurt. That grief is real. Try to find a therapist that specializes in toxic relationships, narcissistic abuse. Because nine times out of 10, if you find out that it's a parent, you've got people around you that are also narcissistic. That are also feeding off of your energy. So, you want to find someone that's well versed in it. If you can't find someone in your area that focuses on that, at least find someone that helps you deal with grief.

Fernanda: Yes.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Because if they understand grief, they understand that the person doesn't have to be deceased in order for you to grieve. And actually, ambiguous grief is worse than the death of someone because you're grieving someone who's alive and well.

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Right. And you just can't reach out to them. You know, it's hurtful. I would say for sure find someone that you can talk to that is going to help you, a professional that's going to help you work through that. If you can find a group, get in a group. I've got a group. No group out loud. I have a group starting September 1st. It's virtual. So, anywhere, wherever you are, you can participate in group. But try to find like minds who have been through that.

Fernanda: Yes. Okay, that's really good. So, how do we learn to believe that our worth isn't tied to productivity, our appearance, or our achievements or other people's approval. It feels like such a simple sentence to say out loud, but it's really a hard thing to actually live.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: So hard. My own personal experience comes from therapy. I had a therapist who was like, "Why are we putting this on your plate?" But it didn't you just tell me last session that your plate was full? What are we doing? Right? So, that accountability piece. And I do that for my clients as well. Like, okay, these are the three things that we are accomplishing. We're not adding anymore. We can take one off, but we're not adding anymore. So, you really need that therapy piece. That is huge. You need to be vocal about it in your household because the accountability piece comes from there too. So, one of the things that I can say now I've had my share of narcissistic romantic relationships, but okay, my husband has been amazing because we have some of similar backgrounds and so he's very good with asking me why are we doing this? You know, are you sure you have space for this because you seem exhausted. So, like that accountability, the more you're around people that understand the dynamic, it helps you in challenging yourself about why you're making the choices that you're making in life.

Fernanda: Oh, I love that. And now you you've just given me something for me to tell my husband now to do.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Oh, yeah. He's good with that.

Fernanda: Well, so he Frank is amazing and he's actually a therapist himself.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Okay.

Fernanda: But I don't know that he asks me why I'm doing things. I'm gonna say, "Babe, tell me next time if you see myself overcommitting myself," which is a problem I have him ask me why. Ask me what I'm doing.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Or like if a family event comes up, he's like, "Now you know, yeah, that this is going to look like so what's the plan?" And we sit down and we actually come up with the plan. Like

Fernanda: Yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: We communicate. And the same for his family. Like we definitely have that about our relationship that we can just be vulnerable. But it was something that I had to learn because again vulnerability growing up was used against me. So in the beginning of my marriage figuring out what I was comfortable being vulnerable with was so hard for me. Oh my god. Asking for help. What?

Fernanda: Oh my god. Yeah, I tend to think that, you know, he is just one of the most patient people, not just because he's my husband, but he is just patient and he's a nurse.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: So, that's wonderful.

Fernanda: Oh, that's lovely. So we are getting towards the end of of the episode. As a closing question, if someone is listening today and is still in the relationship and isn't ready to set boundaries or to step away, like what would you want them to know?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: I would want them to know that they're not alone. And I know that sounds cliche, but you feel very isolated in those types of relationships. Yeah. And so understanding that I wasn't alone, that there were other people who understood this dynamic was so helpful to me. It was so helpful to me. And so knowing that it's okay to love yourself. Whatever that looks like is okay. It's okay. Whenever you're ready, because you do have to be ready. Know that you can do the work. It's not impossible. It's hard, but it's not too hard. And so, you know, there are people in this world that are willing to help you, that are willing to support you and be there for you through this journey. So, I would every time I would say, "You're not alone." Or what would you tell your little girl? What would you tell her if your daughter came to you and told you someone was treating them like this? What would you tell her?

Fernanda: Yeah. That's lovely. Thank you. So, Dr. Cates, thank you so much for this conversation. I came in today with my own story woven through it.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Thank you for sharing your story. That's that's so important that people hear other people's stories, right? Because again, you're not alone.

Fernanda: No, there's a lot of us.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Oh, yeah. Men and women, we're out there.

Fernanda: Yes. You know, I hope this made it feel a little bit more real to anyone who is listening and and maybe living through something similar right now. If you saw yourself in anything we talked about today, I want you to know just like Dr. Cates said, you are not alone. You are not too sensitive. You're not imagining things. The road out of that kind of conditioning is long, but it's walkable and you don't have to figure it all out by yourself. Dr. Cates, can you let everyone know where they can find you, your books, and your work?

Dr. Nzinga Cates: I always tell people to go to my website. That's the the best place that you can go. You can find all of my social media links there. You can purchase my books there. I have a copy of them, got this one. This is Black Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers and my first book is what happens in this house in the mother of strength. And there's also a workbook that goes along with Black Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers. I want to point out it is the book was written from my perspective, my dissertation on black daughters of narcissistic mothers. However, if you have a mom like that, you will find yourself in the book. male, female, I don't care how you identify, you are going to find yourself in this book. So don't be deterred by the title. Yes, you're in there somewhere.

Fernanda: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: You are going to have that experience.

Fernanda: I think those narcissistic experiences I think are universal, but I I'm guessing that your book, I haven't read it yet, but I'm guessing that you have the additional filter of living in an African American socioeconomic background and maybe even the religious filter too, right? I don't know.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: And also just, you know, the survival instinct that we have from slavery, from J, right? Some of the things that were established there were needed at the time because it kept your child safe, right? And it's not to say that it isn't, you know, some of those things aren't still needed, but the fear that we instill in our children, the control, we can do it differently. It doesn't have done that way. The physical punishments, the whoopins, it does far more damage than good, right? A lot of that element is in the book as well because a lot of it is not about shaming because it's on a spectrum, right? All moms aren't shitty. Some moms make mistakes, right? So, it's written from a perspective of not shaming anyone, right? But how do we get better at this? How do we do this differently? So, in North Carolina, I provide therapy. If you're not in the state of North Carolina, I provide coaching or consulting. I also provide coaching and consulting in North Carolina as well, but I just want to make sure that people understand that therapy is not provided outside of North Carolina.

Fernanda: Okay. Yeah. But it's still great to know that you have these other resources too that people can work with you in some kind of capacity.

Dr. Nzinga Cates: Absolutely.

Fernanda: Well, thank you. Thank you so much for listening to connectedness. If this episode meant something to you, share it with someone who who might need to hear it today. Please like and subscribe. And as always, keep showing up for connection, including the connection that you're building with yourself. And I'll see you next time.